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[大盘交流] 上证5年熊市即将结束,静待最后一跌

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 楼主| 发表于 2014-8-26 16:48 | 显示全部楼层
经济要真那么好学,中国就不会连个诺贝尔经济学奖的都拿不着   我也不用天天去跟着那些美联储的主席理事,诺贝尔经济学奖的那些获得者听课了。
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历史成就未来市场推演飞飞浪王波浪研究家园将上证指数拆解到底股指家园

发表于 2014-8-26 17:08 | 显示全部楼层
silicium 发表于 2014-8-26 16:37
我二月就开始看好房地产了,我看好跟他看好是两码事

我的观点是 实体经济的萎缩要靠房地产补窟窿  人 ...

你岂不是泡沫要吹的更大然后破裂?家人都说要征房产税说房价会跌让我把二手房赶快都卖掉。 我觉得有房有股这样才好。所以没有卖的打算。 再说旧房位置都比较好等将来拆迁不好吗?
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发表于 2014-8-26 17:10 | 显示全部楼层
silicium 发表于 2014-8-26 16:48
经济要真那么好学,中国就不会连个诺贝尔经济学奖的都拿不着   我也不用天天去跟着那些美联储的主席理事,诺 ...

:#DAXIAO,楼主去拿个吧
中国要是再靠房地产,中华民族就没有崛起的那一天!!!
科技才能兴国!
放缓经济增长率,调整经济结构,祖国才有希望。
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 楼主| 发表于 2014-8-26 17:26 | 显示全部楼层
wwhzbh7912 发表于 2014-8-26 17:08
你岂不是泡沫要吹的更大然后破裂?家人都说要征房产税说房价会跌让我把二手房赶快都卖掉。 我觉得有房有股 ...

没考虑过二手房的问题和拆迁这种中国特色的现象

鼓泡沫  泡沫吹破是人的天性   任何一个靠房地产汇率发家的国家都必然会经历的过程
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 楼主| 发表于 2014-8-26 17:27 | 显示全部楼层
米兰的天 发表于 2014-8-26 17:10
,楼主去拿个吧
中国要是再靠房地产,中华民族就没有崛起的那一天!!!
科技才能兴国!

我也是希望别人去拿个 我就算了,自己那点本事,跟着大家一起吹泡泡挣钱比较划算

等到泡泡破了 我再去踩一脚 然后跟下一代说,你们要努力学习科技 科技才能强国#*P#
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 楼主| 发表于 2014-8-26 17:55 来自手机 | 显示全部楼层
不要搞错大形式,从2008以后 中国经济的任务一直是寻找新的产业结构 如创业的崛起,摧毁过去的腐朽的阻碍生产力发展的旧经济形态 如大盘股的没落。 我们的时代的基调就是摧毁大部分东西再重建,就像老习说的 selling a dream 现在随着国家一起去摧毁那些东西不是不爱国,恰好相反,这才是真正的爱国 跟着党的方向走。

每一代崛起的时代都是建立在废墟之上如78年的中国,每一个瘤毒的年代都是歌舞升平如2012 2013,我们这代人能对社会做的最大贡献就是顺应时代,参与到这个毁灭和重建的过程里。知道自己该做的事情 才是高瞻远瞩人的人生
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发表于 2014-8-26 18:21 来自手机 | 显示全部楼层
老师说房地产大牛市,学生怎么想也不明白,现在国家大力发展保障房的建设,价钱都很低,还有就是房产税的推出,这两点都是控制房地产,学生觉得未来二手房会大面积涌入市场,这都会影响房地产业的发展,现在很多家庭基本都是3到4套房产,还有楼上说等拆迁,就现在来说房地产商根本不会考虑旧楼的拆迁,因为成本太高,就中国的现状来说,请问老师房地产如何走牛那,谢谢老师。
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发表于 2014-8-26 18:22 | 显示全部楼层
中国地产已是世界之最,按收入比计算,在此基础上期待再次大幅上涨无非痴人说梦!唯一可能出现大幅上涨的情况就是人民币日元化,只是人民币日元化会带来很多麻烦,除非大家都不想活了才会这样走!
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 楼主| 发表于 2014-8-26 18:31 来自手机 | 显示全部楼层
本帖最后由 silicium 于 2014-8-26 18:34 编辑
那个炎热的夏 发表于 2014-8-26 18:21
老师说房地产大牛市,学生怎么想也不明白,现在国家大力发展保障房的建设,价钱都很低,还有就是房产税的推 ...


简单举个例子 房价降20% 买房的人增加50%国家同样抽走67% gdp 会上涨还是下跌呢 房地产开发商是赚的更多了还是更少了呢
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历史成就未来市场推演飞飞浪王波浪研究家园将上证指数拆解到底股指家园

发表于 2014-8-26 18:33 | 显示全部楼层
那个炎热的夏 发表于 2014-8-26 18:21
老师说房地产大牛市,学生怎么想也不明白,现在国家大力发展保障房的建设,价钱都很低,还有就是房产税的推 ...

我也想不明白会不会是城镇化带来的需求?拆迁我觉得还是会有可能节奏会放慢,因为现在不让强拆。 以石家庄为例,二环以内哪里还有空地。只有一些大的工厂搬迁出去,然后再就是老小区的拆迁。不知道如果出台房产税后房地产走势会怎样。
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历史成就未来市场推演飞飞浪王波浪研究家园将上证指数拆解到底股指家园

发表于 2014-8-26 18:36 | 显示全部楼层
silicium 发表于 2014-8-26 17:55
不要搞错大形式,从2008以后 中国经济的任务一直是寻找新的产业结构 如创业的崛起,摧毁过去的腐朽的阻碍生 ...

SI你推荐的广告狂人看完了,很不错。 可是那个毒师我怎么也看不下去。 看着那样一个内向的人杀人做毒品弄的我心理很紧张,本来是想放松的,每次都不敢看下去。:#DAXIAO
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 楼主| 发表于 2014-8-26 18:50 来自手机 | 显示全部楼层
wwhzbh7912 发表于 2014-8-26 18:36
SI你推荐的广告狂人看完了,很不错。 可是那个毒师我怎么也看不下去。 看着那样一个内向的人杀人做毒品弄 ...

我跟他性格挺像的\^o^/
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发表于 2014-8-26 20:00 来自手机 | 显示全部楼层
silicium 发表于 2014-8-26 18:31
简单举个例子 房价降20% 买房的人增加50%国家同样抽走67% gdp 会上涨还是下跌呢 房地产开发商是赚的更多 ...

老师,如果房价降百分之20,购房的人不会那么多,因为在中国房地产不光是为了居住,有一大部分人是为了投资,都认为房地产是不会下跌的,是保值的。如果房地产不会保值,谁还买房。前一段时间看新闻浙江的开发商降价售房,导致售楼处遭打杂。但老师说的情况又根现在有点像,国家一开始出政策限购,把房价降了下来,现在又都取消限购,说实话限购确实抑止了投机,如老师所预测,中国还将走老路的话,那房产税根本就不会出,保障房的量也不会那么大,那整个市场还有那么多的库存怎么办那?谢谢老师。
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 楼主| 发表于 2014-8-26 20:10 来自手机 | 显示全部楼层
那个炎热的夏 发表于 2014-8-26 20:00
老师,如果房价降百分之20,购房的人不会那么多,因为在中国房地产不光是为了居住,有一大部分人是为了投 ...

1.房价的下跌永远不会是因为国家限购

2.至于怎么骗着大家买房 我不想拆国家的台 你如果学经济的话 可以自己从为什么要买房出发思考

3.股票这玩意 不也是涨跌 大部分人被套在高位?一样的道理 股票变成房子 就看推销员的口才了
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 楼主| 发表于 2014-8-26 20:13 来自手机 | 显示全部楼层
说直白一点 房价像样的跌一下然后拉一班子专家权威告诉你 房价到底了 快抄底 很多人就会冲进去了
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 楼主| 发表于 2014-8-26 20:15 来自手机 | 显示全部楼层
我都剧透了就没意思了 每天看论坛上争来争去喊天下第一才有意思

生活的有趣,就在于未来的所谓不可知性↖(^ω^)↗
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历史成就未来市场推演飞飞浪王波浪研究家园将上证指数拆解到底股指家园

发表于 2014-8-26 22:38 | 显示全部楼层
silicium 发表于 2014-8-26 18:50
我跟他性格挺像的\^o^/

哦, 今天看他把用车锁套着的那个人也杀死了弄的我紧张。不知道还能不能看下去。本来是想放松的,结果总是为他担心。
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 楼主| 发表于 2014-8-26 23:54 | 显示全部楼层
wwhzbh7912 发表于 2014-8-26 22:38
哦, 今天看他把用车锁套着的那个人也杀死了弄的我紧张。不知道还能不能看下去。本来是想放松的,结果总是 ...

很多人都看过这个片子仿佛看到过自己年轻时候挣扎的身影,包括巴菲特 伊坎这些人,当然国内的人接受不了这种观点,但是实际上老白到最后一季前基本上都是被迫去杀人,生活没有给他留其他的选择。当然他也有其他的选择。对待老白的善恶上,可以反省自己评价人的标准..
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 楼主| 发表于 2014-8-28 18:52 | 显示全部楼层
本帖最后由 silicium 于 2014-8-28 18:55 编辑

在华外企──佳境缘何变逆境

在华外企──佳境缘何变逆境?对于在中国的西方消费品牌而言,他们盼来了期待已久的情景。

中国的中产阶级队伍正在不断壮大;以往被视为奢侈品的洋货如今买来也不在话下。然而,就在高端品牌商家以为就要进入佳境的时候,不少主要国际消费品牌却发现,自己在中国正面临着前所未有的逆境。

德国汽车公司和日本的汽车零件厂家成为中国当前一波反垄断调查的最新目标。在这一波反垄断风暴中,一些企业接到了罚单,还有一些企业选择了大幅降价。之前被牵涉到调查中的有奶制品、眼镜、制药和软件行业的企业。从微软(Microsoft Co.,MSFT)到梅赛德斯-奔驰(Mercedes-Benz),多个企业被卷入这次行动之中。

这到底是什么情况?此次中国监管机构看上去不仅是要向跨国企业的一些可疑做法开刀,而且在紧张的政治气氛之下还透露出排外意味。

中国媒体经常报道称,从星巴克(Starbucks)的一杯拿铁,到一辆捷豹(Jaguar)汽车,所有海外品牌在中国的售价都要高于全球其他许多地方。

这当然是事实。既然现在有如此多的中国人出国旅行(去年超过一亿次),消费者更有能力来比较价格,并且已开始大声抱怨。

其中一部分价差是运输及场地成本、较高的中国进口关税以及在分散的供应链中各级交易商层层加价等因素所致。但至少一部分跨国公司在中国的销售行为可能是欧美消费者或监管部门难以接受的。比如,汽车制造商通常不会向中国顾客提供购买零部件的选择权。高昂的价格由此产生。

为应对中国的反垄断调查,戴姆勒公司(Daimler AG)和克莱斯勒(Chrysler)最近几周双双下调了汽车零部件价格。微软(Microsoft)也出人意料地因其在中国销售产品的方式而受到了调查。微软称,将对任何调查予以配合。

监管机构调查跨国企业可疑做法一事并未让西方国家的驻华使馆贸易官员心忧,尽管他们猜测那些调查有时起到了加强中国国企的作用。那些官员最担心的是调查以高压手段展开,以及媒体的“狂轰滥炸”,这会给西方企业营造一种令人不安的氛围。外企高管从反垄断调查中得到了两个早期教训。其一是法律几乎无法为其提供庇佑。据外企高管、外交人士和律师等人的说法,中国国家发展和改革委员会(简称:发改委)在定价调查之初给跨国企业私下传达的意思是,不要让外国律师参与进来。第二个教训与第一个有关:抵抗无用。

外国企业面临的选择要么是屈从于监管机构的要求以求迅速解决问题,要么是卷入一场旷日持久争端,对手是一个仍然是国家主导的经济体的强大监管机构,在这两种选择面前几乎没有请律师的必要。在迄今为止所有的反垄断案中,外国企业几乎都是没有抗争就屈从了。外国企业通常的做法是主动降价至少20%,还要伴之以公司董事会层面表达悔改之意,并承诺改进。外国企业会在调查之初,有时甚至是在调查开始之前就宣布降价。克莱斯勒将其突然做出的降低汽车零部件价格的决定称为“积极回应”正在进行的定价调查。

在监管机构进行定价调查的同时,官方媒体还会发表带有排外寓意、慷慨激昂的民族主义言论。杀杀跨国企业的傲气很能得到认为这些企业傲慢的广大公众的认同。《中国青年报》在一篇评论文章中抨击跨国公司,称它们污染环境、欺骗消费者,而面对自己的劣迹,又表现得蛮横无理,既无视中国法律,也无视中国消费者的抗议。去年,新西兰奶业巨头恒天然集团(Fonterra)宣布,旗下某些产品可能含有肉毒杆菌毒素,因此召回了若干产品。新华社并非仅瞄准了这家公司,而是瞄准了整个新西兰。新华社在报道中说,曾经以“纯 100%”享誉世界的新西兰奶源也再度遭遇质疑。但这最终只不过是虚惊一场──检测结果显示,恒天然产品是安全的。媒体进行如此大规模类似报道的背景是,中国政治环境越发暗流汹涌。

中国国家主席习近平正致力于改变经济结构,将经济的依赖重心从投资领域转移至服务业和消费业,但这也让他与国企的既得利益正面为敌。与此同时,他还全力对腐败开战,该国一些最高层官员纷纷落马,这在整个官僚体系中引发了焦虑。这种“民粹主义加高层政坛不确定性”的组合令许多外国投资者不安。他们害怕被各大势力裹挟进去,而这些势力是他们无法控制的。中国监管机构驳斥了批评他们不公平地将打击目标对准外企的声音。《中国日报》(China Daily)援引商务部发言人沈丹阳的话称,在反垄断法面前,所有企业一律平等,不存在“排外”的情况。不过,跨国企业仍然吃惊不小。中国市场日益开放,他们的利润率却在下滑。
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 楼主| 发表于 2014-8-28 19:10 | 显示全部楼层

Our crony-capitalism indexPlanet Plutocrat
The countries where politically connected businessmen are most likely to prosper
Mar 15th 2014
AMERICA’S Gilded Age, in the late 19th century, saw tycoons such as John D. Rockefeller industrialise the country—and accumulate vast fortunes, build palatial mansions and bribe politicians. Then came the backlash. Between 1900 and 1945 America began to regulate big business and build a social safety net. In her book “Plutocrats”, Chrystia Freeland argues that emerging markets are now experiencing their first gilded age, and rich countries their second, with the world’s wealthiest 1%, who benefited disproportionately from 20 years of globalisation, forming a “new virtual nation of Mammon”.
Inventing a better widget, tastier snack or snazzier computer program is one thing. But many of today’s tycoons are accused of making fortunes by “rent- seeking”: grabbing a bigger slice of the pie rather than making the pie bigger. In technical terms, an economic rent is the difference between what people are paid and what they would have to be paid for their labour, capital, land (or any other inputs into production) to remain in their current use. In a world of perfect competition, rent would not exist. Common examples of rent- seeking (which may or may not be illegal) include forming cartels and lobbying for rules that benefit a firm at the expense of competitors and customers.
Class warriors and free-market devotees alike are worrying about rent-seeking. American libertarians fear an elite has rigged their country’s economy; plenty of ordinary Joes reckon the government and Federal Reserve care more about Wall Street than Main Street. Many hedge-fund managers sniff that China is a house of cards built by indebted cronies.
To test the claim that rent-seekers are on the rampage, we have created a crony-capitalist index. Our approach builds on work by Ruchir Sharma of Morgan Stanley Investment Management, Aditi Gandhi and Michael Walton of New Delhi’s Centre for Policy Research, and others. We use data from _Forbes _to calculate the total wealth of those of the world’s billionaires who are active mainly in rent-heavy industries, and compare that total to world GDP to get a sense of its scale. We show results for 23 countries—the five largest developed ones, the ten largest developing ones for which reliable data are available, and a selection of eight smaller ones where cronyism is thought to be a big problem. The higher the ratio, the more likely the economy suffers from a severe case of crony-capitalism.
We have included industries that are vulnerable to monopoly, or that involve licensing or heavy state involvement (see table 1). These are more prone to graft, according to the bribery rankings produced by Transparency International, an anti-corruption watchdog. Some are obvious. Banks benefit from an implicit state guarantee that lowers their cost of borrowing. When publicly owned coal mines, land and telecoms spectrum are handed to tycoons on favourable terms, the public suffers. But the boundary between legality and graft is complex. A billionaire in a rent-heavy industry need not be corrupt or have broken the law. Industries that are close to the state are still essential, and can be healthy and transparent.
A galaxy of riches
Billionaires in crony sectors have had a great century so far (see chart 2). In the emerging world their wealth doubled relative to the size of the economy, and is equivalent to over 4% of GDP, compared with 2% in 2000. Developing countries contribute 42% of world output, but 65% of crony wealth. Urbanisation and a long economic boom have boosted land and property values. A China-driven commodity boom enriched natural-resource owners from Brazil to Indonesia. Some privatisations took place on dubious terms.
Of the world’s big economies, Russia scores worst (see chart 3). The transition from communism saw political insiders grab natural resources in the 1990s, and its oligarchs became richer still as commodity prices soared. Unstable Ukraine looks similar. Mexico scores badly mainly because of Carlos Slim, who controls its biggest firms in both fixed-line and mobile telephony. French and German billionaires, by contrast, rely rather little on the state, making their money largely from retail and luxury brands.
America scores well, too. The total wealth of its billionaires is high relative to GDP, but was mostly created in open sectors. Silicon Valley’s wizards are far richer than America’s energy billionaires. It is one of the few countries where rent-seeking fortunes grew only in line with the economy in recent years, which explains its improved position since 2007. Despite concerns about vampire-squid financiers, few of its billionaires made their money in banking. Even including private equity as rent-seeking, on the grounds that it benefits from tax breaks and cheap loans, would make little difference. Compared with Larry Ellison of Oracle, Stephen Schwarzman of Blackstone is a pauper.
Countries that do well on the crony index generally have better bureaucracies and institutions, as judged by the World Economic Forum. But efficient government is no guarantee of a good score: Hong Kong and Singapore are packed with billionaires in crony industries. This reflects scarce land, which boosts property values, and their role as entrepots for shiftier neighbours. Hong Kong has also long been lax on antitrust: it only passed an economy-wide competition law two years ago.
Another surprise is that despite its reputation for graft, mainland China scores quite well. One reason is that the state owns most natural resources and banks; these are a big source of crony wealth in other emerging economies. Another is that China’s open industries have fostered a new generation of fabulously rich entrepreneurs, including Jack Ma of Alibaba, an e-commerce firm, and Liang Wengen of Sany, which makes diggers and cranes.
One of the most improved countries is India, which moved from sixth place in our ranking to ninth. Recent graft scandals and a slowing economy have hurt many of its financially leveraged and politically connected businessmen, while those active in technology, pharmaceuticals and consumer goods have prospered. Turkish billionaires in rent-seeking industries have been hit by their country’s financial turmoil. By contrast most countries in South-East Asia, including Indonesia, Thailand and the Philippines, saw their scores get worse between 2007 and 2014, as tycoons active in real estate and natural resources got richer.
Who are you calling a crony?
Our crony index has three big shortcomings. One is that not all cronies make their wealth public. This may be a particular problem in China, where recent exposés suggest that many powerful politicians have disguised their fortunes by persuading friends and family to hold wealth on their behalf. Unreliable property records also help to disguise who owns what.
Second, our categorisation of sectors is crude. Rent-seeking may take place in those we have labelled open, and some countries have competitive markets we label crony. Some think America’s big internet firms are de-facto monopolies that abuse their positions. South Korea’s chaebol, which sell cars and electronics to the world, are mainly in industries we classify as open. But they have a history of bribing politicians at home. China’s billionaires, in whatever industry, are often chummy with politicians and get subsidised credit from state banks. According to Rupert Hoogewerf of the Hurun Report, a research firm, a third are members of the Communist Party. Sectors that are cronyish in developing countries may be competitive in rich ones: building skyscrapers in Mumbai is hard without paying bribes, and easy in Berlin. Our index does not differentiate.
The third limitation is that we only count the wealth of billionaires. Plenty of rent-seeking may enrich the very wealthy who fall short of that cut-off. America’s subprime boom saw hordes of bankers earn cumulative bonuses in the millions of dollars, not billions. Crooked Chinese officials may have Range Rovers and secret boltholes in Singapore—but not enough wealth to join a list of billionaires. So our index is only a rough guide to the concentration of wealth in opaque industries compared with more competitive ones.
Despite the boom in crony wealth, there are grounds for optimism. Some countries are tightening antitrust rules. Mexico has many lucrative near- monopolies, from telecoms to food, but its government is at last aiming to improve regulation and boost competition. India’s legal system is trying to jail a minister accused of handing telecoms licences to his chums.
Encouragingly, there are also hints that cronyism may have peaked. The share of billionaire wealth from rent-seeking industries has declined in developing countries, from a high of 76% in 2008 to 58% (see chart 4). That partly reflects lower commodity prices. But now that emerging markets are slowing, investors are becoming pickier. More are steering clear of firms in opaque industries with bad governance. The price-earnings ratio of firms in crony sectors is now at its biggest discount to firms in open sectors for 15 years. That suggests that the highest returns to outside investors are to be found in open industries.
Perhaps when growth picks up again in emerging markets, rent-seeking will explode once more. Or, as countries get richer, the share of great wealth that is made in crony industries may naturally decline. In 1900 American tycoons became rich by building and financing railroads. By 1930 the action had shifted to food production, photography and retailing. Cronies around the world should take note.

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